Music In The New Testament Church
Posted by Norm Fields at 11/10/2007 7:48 PM and is filed under Biblically Speaking,Why don't you,Videos,Worship 
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Bible Q-n-A: Music In The New Testament Church
Dear Norm,
I'm addressing many of the points you made on last night's broadcast over at "www.answeringchurchofchrist.wordpress.com", but I wanted to specifically address one point you made last night here on your blog, specifically that the thief on the cross was a Christian when he was hung on the cross.
I have never heard this theory before, that the thief wasn't saved right on the cross. It is an interesting theory, but the main issue I have with this is Mark 15:32, which says "they that were crucified with him reviled him."
So, if the second thief was already saved, why would he revile him, and then turn around and remember that Jesus was his Lord? It seems more likely that the thief, watching Jesus suffering and forgiving, had an epiphany while on the cross, and was truly experiencing repentance and forgiveness from Jesus.
He had the opportunity, as the religious leaders were mocking Jesus with it. In fact, in Luke 23:39, the other thief mocked Jesus about being the Christ.
I see you and the others on the Churcch of Christ programs often harping on others for making scripture say what they want it to say, and I think that in this case, you are guilty of doing that very thing. This is a great way to make scripture say what you want it to say, instead of what it actually says.
Thanks,
Nathan
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Norm tried to use 1 Peter 3:20 - 21 to prove that water baptism saves us. Those verses say:
“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
The obvious thing to think of here is: what saved Noah? Was it the water, or the Ark? Noah built the Ark by faith, and it was the Ark that saved him from (or “through” - if you check the original Greek “dia” ) the water (Hebrews 11:7). The waters didn’t save Noah - the waters destroyed the ungodly. Also, 2 Peter 2:5 and 3:6 has Peter talking about the waters of the flood destroying the ungodly, not saving Noah.
Now, it is obvious that Peter is saying that going through the flood was a type of baptism for Noah. There is an excellent study of this subject located at the link below. In that study, the writer says:
The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means “copy,” “type,” “corresponding to,” “a thing resembling another,” “its counterpart,” etc. It is what the NIV translates as “symbolizes,” the NASB as “corresponding to that,” and the KJV as “like figure.” Baptism, then, is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is “Of what is it a type?”, or “baptism corresponds to what?”.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/1Pet_3_21.htm
This excellent article which I paraphrased and quoted pretty well puts to bed the argument that Norm made, that 1 Peter 3:21 was saying that the water of baptism saves you.
Excellent article.
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Nathan,
Noah was saved from the sin of the world by God sending the water to destroy the sin in the world. In the same way we are saved from the sin in our lives by God taking that sin away by our faith in His circumcision (baptism) Col. 2:11, 12. By faith Noah prepared the ark so that God could save him through the water. In the same way, we, by faith, are baptized so that God can save us through the water. Water didn't save Noah, God did, by means of water and Noah's faith. Water does not save us, God does, by means of water and our faith. Baptism is an act of faith, without faith it is simply a "putting away of the filth of the flesh" like a bath. But with faith, baptism is where God cuts away our sins. Neither Noah back then or us today are saved by water, we are saved by God by the means of water through our faith.
My question would be, if Noah built the ark and stayed in it, but the water never came, How was he saved? He is still in a sinful world with vile and sick men. Just like the waters of the flood lifted Noah above the old world of sin, in the same way the waters of baptism lift us above the old man of sin (Romans 6:3, 4). But without faith in God, and God's plan using water, Noah and we alike will all perish.
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Hi Norm!
Just writing to wish you and yours a Happy Thanksgiving. Hope you have a great holiday!
God's blessings,
Nathan
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Travis, did you mean that we are saved by our faith in water? If that is true why didn't Paul tell the church at ROME?
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Charles T
I would certainly never say that we are saved by our faith in water. However, Paul does say in Colossians 2:11, 12 that we are saved when we have faith in God's work, which is His cutting away of the sins of the flesh, in baptism. So when we have faith in God, and are baptized, then He works and cuts away the sins from our flesh. It is not faith in water, there is nothing in H2O that can take away sins, but the power of God in the death of Christ Jesus is more than powerful enough to take away sins. This just like what Paul told the church in ROME, that we are baptized into Christ and into His death (Romans 6:3). So without baptism and faith in God's work (Colossians 2:11, 12), then we are outside of Christ and His death, and we will not recieve the blessings of Christ and His death. And in the letter to the Romans Paul makes it crystal clear that we are saved by faith in God, however, if the old man was not crucified in baptism, then we are still our old sinful selves. It takes faith in God, which baptism clearly is, to recieve the benefits of the death of Christ. People need to stop trying to make baptism and faith go against each other, and realize that baptism is an act of our faith in God and our trust that He is fully capable of taking away our sins.
And, I'm just wondering, do you have an answer as to how Noah was saved with the absence of water? Clearly, in order for Moses to be saved BY GOD, water was part of God's plan. In the same way, we are saved by God and by our FAITH IN GOD, which clearly involves being baptized into the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ (Romans 6:3, 4).
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Hello Travis , in the letter to the Church at Rome Paul gives a detailed teaching on salvation by faith. My question is why didn't Paul plainly tell the Romans that they could be saved only through water baptism. Romans 10 , 9 10 and 13. Paul's Teachings deal clearly with the faith and action requirements.
I am not sure that the church at Rome had all of the scriptures that you referenced I believe that Roman letter was intended as a complete church doctrine since there was no apostle there.
My purpose is not to prove anybody wrong, but to find the truth where ever it may be.
Your scripture references are not convincing , none of them support your conclusions without your added comments.
Your contentions are a mixture of unrelated bible verses mixed with your own frail human logic. Why not just let the bible speak especially in matters of salvation doctrine
Noah was saved because he believed God just as Abraham and Paul was. water was just one his particular
I hope you will notice that I am not arguing against Baptism. I do question your Churches contention that it must be done in your denomination in order to be valid.
Thanks God Bless you
Charles T
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Okay, Noah built the ark by faith, i agree. If he had not built the ark then he would have perished with all the rest. However, if he built the ark by faith, and gathered his family, and God brought the animals to him, and they all got in the ark, but it never rained, and water never came. Then nothing changed, there was no salvation through water. He was still in the midst of a sinful people, in the same position he was in before he built the ark. I don't believe that "water" saved him, just like "water" doesn't save us. It was his faith and God's grace that saved him, and this happened when the water came. Our faith saves us, when we are baptized, because baptism is the act where God washed away (Acts 22:16), and forgives (Acts 2:38) our sins.
As for the book of Romans, it is a beautiful book that deals with the power of faith over works of law. But we must remember, every book has a context, a people it's written to, a reason for the writing, and a time in which it is written. Romans was not written to teach non-Christians how to become Christians, it was written to a group of Christians trying to solve problems between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles who were not getting along. It was showing the Jews that the law doesn't save, but faith does. So the Gentiles don't have to obey the law and circumcision, but they are saved by faith like everyone else. It shows that the Jews and Gentiles are in the same boat and are saved the same way: by the power of God. In chapter 1 it shows that the Gentiles are sinners and are lost; in chapter 2 it shows that the Jews are sinners and are lost; and in chapter 3 it shows that "all are sinners, and have fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). In chapter 4 it shows that faith in Christ is the cure for sin, and in chapter 5 it shows how sin entered the world through Adam, and is destroyed by Christ. In chapter 6, after telling them how Christ destroyed sin, he reminds them of their conversion when they died to sin by entering Chirst. Romans 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who DIED TO SIN still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized INTO CHRIST JESUS have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glody of the Father, so we too might walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE." They crucified the old man and became a new man (v.6) they came slaves of righteousness rather than slaves of sin (verse 16-18) by being cruficied with Chirst through baptism. That is how they recieved the Gift of Salvation (which they didn't deserve) rather than the Wage of sin (which they did deserve).
I also do not want to simply argue but to help each other come to a greater understanding of God's will for man. I hope this has been in some way insightful.
Take care
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Sorry, I just realized in that last paragraph I said "in order for Moses to be saved..." and I meant to say "Noah."
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Actually God used water in Moses day too:
1Co 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
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No problem, Mose and Noah were saved the same way, By Believing God
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I think the important lesson to be learned here is that customs change over time.. laws change if the law giver changes them..but the principle's of God are eternal. Action is essential. Doing nothing is the devils work and all that is required for spiritual death.
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Thanks Will, I think I agree , I am not quite sure what you are saying .
is it a sin to play instruments in church or not? IF so Why?
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Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
This says teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. If we are to teach and admonish one another, that means "everyone is singing" In like manner if you add "playing" which would be a sin (Rev.22:18) then that would mean everyone must have a piano,guitar,horn,etc. etc. Not only that but verse 17 sats what ever you do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, this means by His authority, and in His written will,the N.T. there is NO AUTHORITY given for mechanical instruments of music in worship.
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