Bible Q-n-A for November 29, 2007 - Jonathan Falwell On Baptism
Posted by Norm Fields at 11/30/2007 1:06 AM and is filed under Baptism,Salvation,Denominationalism,Biblically Speaking,Doctrine 
It was a lively program tonight! There were lots of calls in response to the subject matter and many just to get answers to questions. I am glad that people view me and members of the church of Christ in this area as people to whom a Bible question can be asked to get a Bible answer.
The subject matter of tonight’s program was the Danville Register and Bee article on Jonathan Falwell from this past Monday. In the article Falwell refers to the numbers of people they have been receiving at Thompson Baptist church where he preaches. He refers to the number of people being “saved,” the number of new members and the number of people being “baptized.” He is obviously making a distinction between the number of people being “saved” and the number of people being “baptized” because he believes they are two different things. In other words, he believes people can be saved without being baptized. This is made even clearer when he goes on to give specific numbers and the number of people being “saved” is greater than the number of people being “baptized.
That is interesting. Especially since the Bible says that “as many of you as have been baptized have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:26, 27; Rom. 6:3, 4). So if you were to ask the apostle Paul how many people were saved, i.e. “in Christ” (Eph. 1:3; 2 Tim. 1:1; 2:10), he would say, “as many as have been baptized.” But Jonathan Falwell, just like his father before him, says that you are saved without baptism. Who will you believe?
There were lots of good calls and I’ll get the video and the call-clips posted as soon as I can. You can look for them to be online early next week. I’m looking forward to your comments.
The subject matter of tonight’s program was the Danville Register and Bee article on Jonathan Falwell from this past Monday. In the article Falwell refers to the numbers of people they have been receiving at Thompson Baptist church where he preaches. He refers to the number of people being “saved,” the number of new members and the number of people being “baptized.” He is obviously making a distinction between the number of people being “saved” and the number of people being “baptized” because he believes they are two different things. In other words, he believes people can be saved without being baptized. This is made even clearer when he goes on to give specific numbers and the number of people being “saved” is greater than the number of people being “baptized.
That is interesting. Especially since the Bible says that “as many of you as have been baptized have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:26, 27; Rom. 6:3, 4). So if you were to ask the apostle Paul how many people were saved, i.e. “in Christ” (Eph. 1:3; 2 Tim. 1:1; 2:10), he would say, “as many as have been baptized.” But Jonathan Falwell, just like his father before him, says that you are saved without baptism. Who will you believe?
There were lots of good calls and I’ll get the video and the call-clips posted as soon as I can. You can look for them to be online early next week. I’m looking forward to your comments.
I am a member of the church of Christ. I was added to the body of Christ 2 years last month. We believe that you should repent and be baptized for the remission of sins like the Bible says. I was a Baptist growing up and that is the way that believed that you are saved and that is it. not like the true church the church of Christ. I think people need to read their Bible more closely. this is my opinon. I will pray for this preacher at the Baptist church that he will see the error in his belief. May the heavenly Father bless your program. love Suzie.
[Note: I corrected some typos on this comment, hope you don't mind Suzie. Other than some capitalizations and spelling corrections, the comment is as it was submitted. Norm].
Reply to this
Hello Norm ,
I do not believe that the bible forbids music in the new testament church. The volume of Bible recognizes music in praise;There are all kinds of instruments listed in psalms 150, The Elders played harps in REV 5 8. If musical instruments are offensive to God he would have made it plain somewhere in the bible.
your comparison of musical instruments with putting jelly on the bread was not valid. The bible plainly teaches not to take communion unworthily, Jesus said to do it in remeberance of him. There is no mention of musical instruments. Your theories are dependent on the logic of your carnal mind. The Bible teaches us not to lean on our own understanding . "Every word should be established in the mouth of two or three witness" If your doctrine is true it would be found in at least 2 plain bible scriptures.
The thing that I found troubling was that you said that those who don't agree with your position on musical instruments are not saved.
The early Church disagreed on some things yet they were brethren in cross. Paul said to honor the weaker brethren so I wont play my instrument in church where church of Christ members are present. I don't want my liberty to cause you to stumble.
One of the scriptures that you used to defend your doctrine was Jesus statement to the woman at the well that God wants us to worship in"spirit and in truth" You said that this exclude instruments but allows amplified singing.
If you are worshiping in spirit and truth why do you use microphones, song books and a PA system. These things are not mentioned in the bible, they are used to facilitate singing for the benefit of those who are listening . God is not hard of hearing HE does not need these things or musical instruments ,they are for the edification of the church
Thanks Norm God Bless You
Reply to this
Dear Charles T
I would just like to make a few quick comments about how you used some of the verses that you used in this comment. First, I agree that in the Psalms musical instruments are spoken of as being played to God in worship, however so are animal sacrifices, and I don't believe that you would try to teach the use of animal sacrifices in the New Testament as an acceptable part of our worhip, if I am wrong then please correct me.
Second, In Rev 5:8, it not only mentions harps, but golden bowls of incense as well, and if you finish reading the rest of that verse you will clearly see that neither the instruments nor the incense are literal but the verse clearly says that those are prayers of the saints. If you want to apply that verse to the New Testament church, you would not use the Old Testament symbols of instruments or incense, but you would use what the verse says, prayers of the saints. The verse tells you what it is talking about, prayers, not instruments or golden bowls of incense.
Third, read Deuteronoomy 19:15 and Matthew 18:16 and look at what is being spoken of. That is clearly the context of disciplining a child of God who has been commiting sin, it has nothing to do whith how many times God gives a command to mankind. Not to be rude, but that was an extreme misapplication of those passages, and that leaves me to wonder, do you really believe that if God says something one time it is invalid because He did not say it 2 or 3 times? That doesnt make sence, if God says something one time, then it needs to be followed just as much as if He said it 500 times. Being a follower of God truly is that important, and we are not at liberty to say which commands are important and which commands are not important.
Hebrews 7:14 is in the context of Jesus being our High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek. Several things are being taught in chapter 7 of Hebrews; one is that the Old Law was changed becasue the Priesthood was changed (verse 12). Under the Old Law, in order to be a priest you had to have been from the tribe of Levi and a descendent of Aaron, which Jesus was not, He was from the tribe of Judah (verse 14). So under the Old Law, Jesus could not have been a High Priest because He was from the tribe of Judah and not Levi. But becasue Jesus is now our High Priest, that means that the Old Law was done away with. You may be wondering where I am going with this. Well, you said, "There is no mention of musical instruments," and I agree. In verse 14 of Hebrews 7, the Hebrew writer makes an argument that Jesus could not be High Priest under the Old Law becasue He was from the Tribe of Judah, "of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood." Moses did not condemn, nor did he condone, a priest comming from Judah, but becasue of his silence, it was clear that it was unauthorized and thus wrong. Mustical instruments are not specifically condmened, but by the silence, it is clear that they are wrong.
Reply to this
Hello Travis,
There you go again, filling up the page with scripture references that have nothing to do with the subject.
Of course we would not have animal sacrifices , the NT makes it clear that Chris is Lamb of God , his sacrifice fulfilled the law, there is no more sacrifice. the OT sacrifices were preparing the way for Christ the Lamb of God.
Please defend the fact that your denomination has no scripture to support the doctrine on instruments. Again how can you justify the use of amplified singing and songbooks in church, the NT is also silent on these. How can you form a doctrine on something that the Bible does not say?
I believe that applicable scripture would be Paul's teaching in Romans about the disagreement on eating meat. He said that if we eat meat to the glory of God then God is glorified, If we abstain from meat to the glory of God , God is Glorified. I believe that the same thing applies to the use of instruments. If you do not use instruments to the glory of God, God is glorified, if we use instruments to the glory of God , God is Glorified
Gods commands are very clear in the Bible, any reasonable person would certainly agree that the above page full of unrelated scriptures do not constitute a command not to use instruments.
I am sorry ,I did not get the same thing as you did from the Hebrew teaching on the Priesthood.
I think that Paul was making the case for the Jews that Jesus was a legal High priest because he was of the order of Melchizedek who was before the law of Moses therefore greater than Arron or Levi. Melchizedek, you will recall was the one who met Abraham after rescuing Lot. Some believe that this was an old Testament appearance of Christ.
Where does it say in the NT that "that the Old Law was done away with" . Jesus said that every point of the law will be fulfilled, Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law.
Thanks for the discussion.
God Bless You
CharlesT
Reply to this
Exactly, Charles T! Great comment.
And also, the verses which Norm and company throw out whenever they get the chance (Eph 5:19 & Col 3:16) aren’t even dealing with what folks can and can’t do in worship. They are talking about daily living! If you use these verses to conclude that the use of mechanical instruments is wrong in your assembly, then you must also conclude that it is wrong outside the assembly because both passages are focused on daily living.
Reply to this
Travis P.S.
I don't believe that Arron was of the tribe of Levi he came from Egypt with Moses. Wasn't Levi and Arron two different orders of the priesthood?
Also, I checked and John did see the Elders praising God with Harps. This might have been symbolic ,but it does add to my contention that the Bible does not indicate that Instruments are offensive to God. There are in fact the volume of the bible that indicate otherwise.
As for the interpretation of scripture : The bible says that no scripture is for private interpretation, I believe that all scripture should be read in light of other scripture.
Was there ever a law in the OT that instruments must be used in praise?
Thanks Again
Reply to this
Travis, In Amos 5:23 we see that GOD finds the "Instrumental Music" being used as noise that he does not want to hear. Also in Amos 6:5 we see that David and others have invented instruments of music for themselves. I think today this is one of the real problems that is occuring with MI in worship. Those who use MI are inventing their own style of worship. Once again find a place in the NT where the 12 or disciples used MI? I have been to worship services where the MI were played as solos during the song. Tell me how MI alone teaches and admonishes each other? This where man is using their desires overwrite GOD'. All things are lawful but not all are helpful 1 Cor. 6:12. As for PA, Microphones, pitch pipes etc. These are all expediencies they in no manor altar the words or meaning of the songs or hymns. David used musical instruments as a form of worship and he also had many wives. Those were allowed in the OT. We are instructed to have only one wife and we are instructed to SING and make melody in our hearts. To do more than what is commanded could be detrimental to our souls. Sincerely, Drew
Reply to this
Charles T wrote:
Travis P.S.
I don't believe that Arron was of the tribe of Levi he came from Egypt with Moses. Wasn't Levi and Arron two different orders of the priesthood?
----------------------------------------
Charles T., Say I'm not trying to made lite of you in any way. But could you please run that by one more time, with just a little scripture to back it up. Now I may be mistaken, but don't this put a little doubt in the minds of the people that is reading what you write, it may even make them think that you do not know too much about the Bible, or maybe they may think you don't even read the Bible at all and get your Bible learning from your Pastor, Bishop or another clergyman in your parish or congregation. Charles T. I think that you mean well, but meaning well just don't grese the wheel.
Have A Nice Evening,
George
Reply to this
Travis, is that the best you can do , maybe you should read Christ's references to scripture, he never once used Chapter and Verse. In fact The Chapters and Verse numbers are man made and not inspired Scripture.If there are people on this blog who are not Bible literate chapter and verse references are going to confuse them more.
Since you love to use Chapter and verse like cannonballs Why don't you respond to my entry with an reasonable reply, (other than that I am ignorant and pitiful)
May you think that unlearned bystanders my be impressed with your long list of scripture references which have little to do with the issues? or you are upset because you can't prove you're point.
Can you reply without the personal Insults?
TX
Charles
Reply to this
Okay Charles
Sit back, take a breath and look who is posting before you riddle me with false accusations about me insulting you. You will see that I didn't insult you in any way when you look what I, Travis, wrote. If you want to appoligize I would be more than willing to accept it.
Also you accused me several times about just filling up the screne with Scriptures that have nothing to do with the topic. Go back and look, I only responded to Scriptures that YOU posted with the exception of Hebrews 7.
And to answer your question about Aaron and Levi, Aaron and Moses were brothers and both of them were Levites. Look at Exodus 2:1-Moses' Mother and Father were Levites, and Moses and Aaron were brothers. Also if you look at Exodus 6:16-23 you will see the geneology of the Levites which goes straite to Aaron and then his sons.
To answer your questions about songbooks and amplified singing, you have to look at where the New Testament authorizes singing. Since vocal singing is authorized, then as long as you dont change that command then you are following God's will. An example would be the Lord's Supper. If you put the unleavened bread on a plate, you have added something, but that does not change the command to take unleavened bread. But if put peanut butter on it, then you have changed the command. A song books helps me sing vocally, but musical instruments change it from vocal to instrumental.
And your question about the law being done away, there are many places that teach that we are no longer under the Old Law, but simply read Hebrews 8:13, and that should help. And I'm just curious, do you really believe that we are still under the Old Law? I don't entierly understand why you would ask that unless you believed it. And if you believe it, then why don't you have burn incence, or go to Jerusalem, or anything like that? If I am misunderstanding about what you believe then please correct me.
Have a great day
Reply to this
...the Bible says that “as many of you as have been baptized have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:26, 27; Rom. 6:3, 4). So if you were to ask the apostle Paul how many people were saved, i.e. “in Christ”, he would say, “as many as have been baptized.”
He would say that as many as have been buried WITH Christ, buried WITH Him, etc. But, he would not say "them".
I'm wondering....do you invoke the name of Jesus Christ, the One into Whom one is being baptized, over your baptismal candidates? Or do you speak the titles of the trinity?
Thanks.
Reply to this