Will They Come?
Here are a couple of emails that I have sent to commenters to the Bible Q-n-A videos on YouTube. These, among others, have tried very hard to show where I am teaching false doctrine. I have invited these two because, at least, their arguments seemed to be halfway intelligent. I don't think they will come because, while they are very bold in their comments, they know that their arguments cannot stand up to scriptural examination. I never will understand why people who think they have the truth aren't willing to stand up in front of any audience and have what they teach examined in the light of scripture. Well, we will see.
Sinner's Prayer
If you think you can establish the authority for a sinner's prayer from the Bible then I would be happy to allow you to do so on my live TV program. Just let me know when you can come and I'll arrange for the air time. It won't cost you anything for the opportunity to come and expose me as a false teacher to my TV audience. We will take equal time. You will have equal time with me to make your points. We can even take calls from the audience. Just let me know when you can be here.
Since you are so knowledgeable about the New Testament church and so willing to point out where I am teaching false doctrine why don't you come and do so on my live TV program. You can pick the topic where you think I am teaching false doctrine, the nature of the true church for example, and we will have equal time to make our points in front of a live TV audience. I'll pay for the air time so it won't cost you anything to expose me as a false teacher once and for all. Will you accept such a challenge? If so you will truly set yourself apart from all the other denominational jelly-backed liars that have been given the same chance.
Sinner's Prayer
If you think you can establish the authority for a sinner's prayer from the Bible then I would be happy to allow you to do so on my live TV program. Just let me know when you can come and I'll arrange for the air time. It won't cost you anything for the opportunity to come and expose me as a false teacher to my TV audience. We will take equal time. You will have equal time with me to make your points. We can even take calls from the audience. Just let me know when you can be here.
Since you are so knowledgeable about the New Testament church and so willing to point out where I am teaching false doctrine why don't you come and do so on my live TV program. You can pick the topic where you think I am teaching false doctrine, the nature of the true church for example, and we will have equal time to make our points in front of a live TV audience. I'll pay for the air time so it won't cost you anything to expose me as a false teacher once and for all. Will you accept such a challenge? If so you will truly set yourself apart from all the other denominational jelly-backed liars that have been given the same chance.
Hey Norm,
You might want to check your spelling of "intelligent" up there, buddy.
Happy New Year!
Blessings,
Nathan
Come and visit our blog! We'd love to have your comments.
Reply to this
Hello Norm, I caught you on TV tonight, Remember in Romans 9 it says to believe in your heart. Jesus said as a man think in his heart so is he" another scripture speaks of the circuncission of the heart.
Also, you said the publican at the alter was already saved. Why did he call himself a sinner and wasn't it his faith and contrition that justified him.
I love your program, I dont agree with everything but it sure motivates me to study
Reply to this
Charles,
Please notice where the publican was and then answer this question, were alien sinners allowed to be there? The answer is found in Num. 3:38; 19:20; Ezek. 44:9, among others.
The publican is not an example of an alien sinner who was "saved" by his prayer. He is an example of what Jesus used him as an example of. The contrast between the Pharisee and the Publican is not that of alien sinner to child of God. Rather, the contrast is between two attitudes toward God, haughty and humble. Jesus used a Pharisee, who were considered to by among the most devout of the Jews, and a publican, the most hated of the Jews. However, they were both Jews. The publican did not "become" a Jew by his prayer any more than a person "becomes" a Christian by their prayer. Before a person could go into the Temple, where they were praying, they had to be in a covenant relationship with God. The "sinner's prayer," however, says that the way to enter into a covenant relationship with God is by this kind of prayer that is only exemplified in the Bible by those who are already in a covenant relationship with God (Lk. 18:10-12; 1 Jn. 1:7-10).
Thanks,
Norm
Reply to this
All verses posted are out of the NKJV.
Numbers 3:38 "Moreover those who were to camp before the tabernacle on the east, before the tabernacle of meeting, were Moses, Aaron, and his sons, keeping charge of the sanctuary, to meet the needs of the children of Israel; but the outsider who came near was to be put to death." So were either the publican or the Pharisee a son of Aaron?
Numbers 19:20 "But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself, that person shall be cut off from among the assembly, because he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of purification has not been sprinkled on him; he is unclean." In context, this is speaking of someone who had touched or had even been around a dead body, and had failed to cleanse himself in the prescribed way given in the previous verses of Numbers 19. This isn't referring to a Pharisee OR a publican.
Ezekiel 44:9 "Thus says the Lord GOD: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel." The Israelites had defiled God's holy temple by with foreigners, committing abominations against it. So, because the Pharisee was there in the Temple, and a native Jew, was he circumcised in heart?. Obviously not.
Luke 18:9-14 "Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Jesus says in verse 14 that the publican was justified before God, unlike the proud Pharisee. Norm, you say, "Before a person could go into the Temple, where they were praying, they had to be in a covenant relationship with God." So was the Pharisee in a right covenant relationship to God? Jesus indicates he was not. He only thought he was. The contrast is between attitudes of the truly righteous verses that of the false, self-proclaimed, outward righteousness of impostors. The publican was saved because of his correct response of faith to God. He knew he was a sinner in need of God's forgiveness and without it, he was lost. So he sought that forgiveness from God in prayer. Jesus says in Luke 11:9-13 that if we seek, we will find; if we ask we will receive. So seriously Norm, are we NOT TO ASK god in prayer? Make sure you read Luke 11:5-13 and Hebrews 11 (particularly verse 6) before responding.
Reply to this
Take note that I am NOT saying that we are not to be baptized or that baptism is neither here nor there. There are verses that indicate that we are to be baptized, just as the examples of converts given in the New Testament were baptized. My whole point, and question to you, being: Are we NOT to ask God's forgiveness in prayer?
Reply to this
Your references and comments are not on point. The point I made about the publican being an example of what is currently taught as the "plan of salvation" by faith alone. Specifically, the publican being used as an example of "the sinner's prayer," as it is taught today by "faith only" proponents. The publican is not an example of someone who was saved by his prayer. His prayer, rather, is an example of the penitent attitude of those who truly strive to live faithfully to God. If his prayer is an example of receiving forgiveness of sins through prayer it is that of someone who was already a child of God repenting and asking forgiveness, as we have example of New Testament Christians doing. Simon had been saved through obedience to the gospel (Acts 8:12, 13). However, Simon sinned after he had been saved and needed to repent and ask God's forgiveness of that sin (Acts 8:18-24). The prayer here is on the part of someone who was already in a covenant relationship with God, not that of one entering into such relationship. The sinner's prayer doctrine of the faith only system says that you enter into your covenant relationship with God by means of that prayer. No such example exists anywhere in scripture. Another example is that of John's writing to those who were already Christians in 1 John. He was not writing to non-Christians about how to become a Christian but to Christians about how to be faithful as Christians. To them he says that they are to ask forgiveness of their sins and God will be faithful to forgive because they are being faithful to God in under the new covenant of Jesus Christ (1 Jn. 1:7-10). Your appeal to Luke 11:5-13 is, again, another example of Jesus speaking to those who were already children of God. Jesus preached only to the house of Jacob, the children of Israel (Matt. 10:5, 6). He was preaching to those who were supposed to have been ready for him because they were living in a covenant with God. The ministry of Jesus is mainly occupied with restoring apostate children of God to faithfulness in preparation for his coming kingdom (Acts 2:37-41; cf. Matt. 3:1, 2; 4:17). None of them came into their covenant with God by prayer. None of them were prepared for the coming kingdom by prayer. They had to repent and be baptized, as John preached (Mark 1:4). After the kingdom was established in Acts 2 people were no longer baptized in John's baptism but in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 19:3-5).
You accuse me, us (members of the church of Christ), of taking passages out of context but you don't even recognize who Jesus is speaking to in the context. The only way you can have the publican being an example of an alien sinner being saved, becoming a child of God, being born again, having their sins washed away, etc., by prayer is to completely ignore the context.
The Bible says that we are saved through the gospel (Rom. 1:16; 1 Pet. 1:22, 23; et. al.) so can you please show me where it says that someone becomes a Christian, a child of God, has their sins washed away, enters into Christ, is born again through prayer? Please do not think to use passages of those who are already Christians, children of God, having had their sins washed away, having already entered into Christ, having already been born again and then asking God to forgiven sins committed after the fact. You know very well that the sinner's prayer, as taught in the denominational system of salvation by faith only, teaches that people are born again, becoming children of God, entering into Christ, having their sins washed away, when a person says the proscribed prayer. Not only can you not find such being done in the Bible but you can't find the prayer itself in the Bible. You know the sinner's prayer I am referring to and you are being dishonest when you pretend that we are referring to something else, like the publican praying in the temple.
Reply to this
Hello Norm, I agree that one is not saved by repeating the so called sinners prayer, That is just another ritual unless we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth.
I have a question about your statement to the effect that people can not pray or believe their way into into a covenant.
Would you comment on Rahab in Jericho who expressed her belief in the God of Israel Became a spiritual Jew and was placed into the linage of Christ.
Ruth, a heathen Moabite widow
,Stated her belief in and acceptance of the God of Israel to Naomi her Jewish Mother in Law .She is also in the linage of Christ. The woman at the well stated her belief in the coming Messiah. Jesus revealed him self to her and she became the first evangelist of Christ.
Adam was saved by the righteous covering . Abel was Saved by his faith before the covenant. Abraham believed God and was saved by Faith before the Circumcision or the law of Moses
There are other examples.
People were saved then the same as now; by believing God in their Heart. Since Abel and under the law man was taught that we can
Under the Law they were taught by the sin offering that we can not atone for our own sins. The innocent unblemished lamb died for their sins. they were not saved by the Lamb but on their belief in God. I think that this was done to prepare the way for Christ.
Circummsision did not save anyone in the old Testament and Baptism Did not save anyone in the New testament. The theme of salvation through a righteousness of faith runs through The entire Bible and can be found in every book.
Thanks for the reply
Charles
PS are you teaching that Baptism is a part of a covenent?
Reply to this
PS Norm, I have another question.
You would not accept the OT for doctrine on music in church, but did use the OT for doctrine when you replied to Lion and Lamb.
Can you explain the difference?
Reply to this
Charles,
I did not use the Old Testament to "establish" doctrine. Rom. 15:4 says that the Old Testament is for our learning. We can learn a great deal from the Old Testament and it is, without doubt, the inspired word of God. When I refer to the Old Testament it is usually for an example of how faithful people served God and/or how God has always required faithfulness on the part of his people. If I do refer to the Old Testament in the context of New Testament doctrine it is because there are examples how those same doctrines were applied under the Old Testament. Not every New Testament doctrine originated in the New Testament. For example, 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated in the New Testament. Only the Sabbath law is not re-given in the New Testament. So, while we do not appeal to the Old Testament for our doctrine we can learn how God's people in the Old Testament applied the same doctrine that was given to us by Christ.
Thanks,
Norm
Reply to this
Hello Norm, I am trying to make sense out of your doctrine on instruments.
The OT encouraged or commanded the use of instruments. Instruments are mentioned in Revelations.To me that indicates that God is not offended by Instruments.
There is no reference in The NT about instruments except in Revelations. Why would the spirit use the the metaphor of instruments in a New testament Revelation to a new testament Apostle if H was offended by their use. (Mis use is another matter).I am trying to understand your method of applying scripture.
Let's see if I have it; Old testament scriptures become new testament doctrine only if they are renewed in the New Testement?
Does that mean that the Law of the tithe (I don't mean Giving)is no longer in
effect? my observation is that the tithe (10% of your gross income) is the only thing that all denominations completely agree on. was in fired as a Sunday school teacher a few years ago for teaching Giving rather than tithing.
I am now doing a major Bible study, your programs are very helpful although am not ready to accept all of your conclusions
TX
Charles
Reply to this
Thanks for your very thoughtful reply, I will try to learn more about covenet relationships.
Reply to this
Hey Norm, I'm the one to whom you wrote the message "Contradicting the Word of God". While I'm flattered that you consider me semi-intelligent, I'm wondering why, though you read my reply on youtube, you haven't responded to me directly? I'll copy and paste the response given there here: "Hhhhmmmmm.... arguing with you on live tv.... and I could expose you.....once and for all... FOR FREE!! While that sounds exhilarating, Benny Hinn was exposed on Dateline, and Robert Tilton was exposed on 20/20. They're both still on tv. Little good that would do then huh? But seriously, here's a counter offer. Why don't you answer my questions on here? Answer them with Scripture used in the context that they were given. That would be much more helpful. Rather than to "expose you", I'd rather you have to actually dig into the Bible for your answers, going into deep, Biblically researched explanations, weighing the seriousness and accuracy of what you are saying. Also, if your proof texts don't support your claim, I'll call you on it. Then maybe you wouldn't need "exposing". We can do this in the public response section or by private message. Your choice. Now then, how have I contradicted the Word of God? Also, how am I a denominational jelly-backed liar?" So Norm, once again, how have I contradicted the Word of God; and how am I a "denominational jelly-backed liar? Be specific now....
Reply to this
Hello Justaguy, I am the other one invited to be on TV.
It might be exciting to have a public contest, it would only work. If there was a neutral moderator and access to Norm's Bible soft ware.
I really don't want to expose anyone who is publicly challenging people to read the bible and calling the name of Christ as Norm is. I think that a three way public discussion would generate interest in the bible . It would be a bad thing to go public just to humiliate another person. In any case , I don't represent anybody but myself. I assemble with 4 or 5 believers. I am sick of seeing the Gospel packaged and sold. as I told Norm I am engaged in a new Bible study. I don't care to spread any body's doctrine , not even my own. My calling is to understand all that God wants to teach me.
Thanks for your comments
Reply to this
Dear Lion and Lamb Ministries, I attend the church of christ i am new to your ideas if we are wrong please come on the air and debate with norm i have faith that the truth will prevail.As a Christian it is your duty.
Reply to this
clelan pierce, Why do you call him a Christian? the only Christians are the in the church of Christ, at least that is what your preacher says.
Reply to this
Calling who a Christan .well any christian would stand up for there belifs as i will mine. Lion And Lamb i belive there is some many of things that are going wrong on in this world as well as with many churches in the world today knowing we we are all imperfect of being called Christian And I am not trying to git into a debate with denomanations here that would be a wrong turn i dont belive in donomanations
Reply to this
Dear Charles T,
Are you going to tell everyone that someone can be a christian outside of the body of Christ? Why would you say, "clelan pierce, Why do you call him a Christian? the only Christians are the in the church of Christ, at least that is what your preacher says." if you didn't clearly believe that people outside of Christ's church are chrustians too?
Also, I don't understand your reasoning about the amplified singing. I get the idea of what your saying, but I don't understand how you can compare microphones and songbooks to instumental music. The church uses microphones and songbooks but we’re not offering them up as a part of our worship to God the same way denominations are offering up their musical instruments. Not every congregation even uses microphones. Their used primarily in larger congregations to make it possible for everyone, even the backrow-ers to hear the songleader and follow his lead. Also makes it easier for people to hear the preacher from where their at. They are a great peice of technology and that’s IT. I’m sure that Paul, or even Jesus Himself would have used one had it been available to them.
Your comparison, is like saying (or like your saying, we’re saying) that Christians today can’t use Mylanta for their upset stomachs. Because Paul never gave the authority for new age medicines to cure upset stomachs, but only wine (1 tim 5:23).
Mylanta wasn’t available to Timothy then, but thanks to technology we have it and use it today.
Microphones (which again, is not the same thing as what your saying or thinking it is) weren’t available, but thanks be to God, now they are.
Musical instruments however, were always conveniently available to the first century church, and still yet, again, we find no place of them being used in the New Testament worship. Not commanded, nor even suggested..
Also, do you honestly believe that Aaron and Levi weren't of the same tribe?
Reply to this
I was just wondering if Lion and Lamb has responded to your debate request.
Reply to this
No, David Picos refused to defend his comments about the church of Christ in a public discussion. His comments were false and in some cases, I believe, he flat out lied knowing his comments were false. Like when he said the book, "Why I Am A Member Of The Church Of Christ," is the church manual for the church of Christ. All he had to do is read the preface to the book to see where the author clearly stated that this book is simply a collection of sermons. Yet he held it up and said it was the "secret" manual for the church of Christ. I believe he knew when he said it that it was a lie.
Reply to this
Ok, thanks. I can't say I'm surprized. I really didn't expect them to respond.
Reply to this